The Pennock Knockdown: Marketing Mastery: TikTok Trends, Scaling Secrets, and 2025 Event Insights
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As an executive with a sharp interest in performance marketing, Kristin employs her 15 years of experience in customer acquisition, activation, and retention to create verifiable results for Take Flight clients every day. She is a bold leader in the industry with a proven track record of building performance-marketing programs that yield substantial results. She is also an exceptional project manager, fierce negotiator, and cross-functional leader.
Brands Mentioned
Transcript
Nikki Lindgren
Welcome to another episode of The Pennock Knockdown, a podcast for strategies and tactics that digital marketing leaders can use in their everyday life. I'm joined today by Kristin Lewis, who is the founder and CEO of Take Flight Marketing. Kristin, super excited to have you on the show today.
Kristin Lewis
Super excited to be here with you, Nikki.
Nikki Lindgren
Well, I'd love to get into your bio and your background. So tell me a little bit about what you did leading into founding the agency and what led you to want to start.
Kristin Lewis
I've been working in marketing for over 20 years now. I started in-house working with a lot of different startups on their marketing team and really got to touch a lot of different channels. So I felt like I was pretty equipped when I started consulting. And I'd been consulting for a few years. I decided, you know, what would just happen if I started saying yes to everything that was falling into my lap and started to scale up my team?
And so I started testing and playing with that and finding the right folks to plug in and for which channels. And we were successful. So in 2019, I decided to make it official and started Take Flight Marketing. We focus largely on running paid media for direct-to-consumer brands. We are very well-versed in paid social, paid search, paid audio, and so on and so forth.
Nikki Lindgren
Remind the audience of the verticals or industries you help in most heavily.
Kristin Lewis
We work largely with health and wellness brands. We’ve had the pleasure of working with a variety of different supplements, fitness businesses, medical devices, and beauty products. So we are very pumped about the health and wellness industry in general.
Nikki Lindgren
That is amazing. What a fun space to work in. So we like to start off asking what types of products you're really into. Given you're in health and wellness, are there any products that you recently discovered or services that you would like to shout out here?
Kristin Lewis
This is really my favorite question—definitely a topic I'm pretty passionate about. I’ve tried everything under the sun. I will say, from a beauty perspective, I recently tried the Augustinus Bader Rich Cream. It's absolutely worth the hype. It is so moisturizing. Also, the bottle is just gorgeous, that beautiful blue.
There are definitely a few standouts that I like a little bit more, but this moisturizer is definitely worth the hype. From a wellness perspective, I’m kind of into doing some weird things right now. In fact, I’m going later today with my mom to lay on something called a VemiBed, which is a PEMF technology—red light, infrared, sound, and vibrational technology—and then you get a Vitamin drip in an IV at the same time.
It’s a little disconcerting when you lay down. There’s a whole lot going on: the bed is shaking, there’s this weird noise happening, you’ve got an IV drip here, and then all of a sudden you fall asleep. Every 30 minutes is worth four hours of rest. I’m going to do that this afternoon, and hopefully, it will have me glowing and feeling rested.
Nikki Lindgren
Well, in the beginning of the year, the month of January, it sounds like the perfect time to take advantage of that great reset and moment of relief and break from your everyday life.
Kristin Lewis
Mm-hmm. Yeah, we got to get it started right.
Nikki Lindgren
Absolutely. I love it. I feel like I should be going and doing that after today's recording.
Kristin Lewis
Absolutely.
Nikki Lindgren
Well, switching gears a little bit, let's talk about marketing. Our agency overlaps with yours a lot in terms of services offered. So I'm excited to talk today about some tactics and techniques that you found that have either worked really well or really flopped. So I'd love to kind of hear, yeah, what you have to say in terms of successes and lack thereof and how you're looking at those moments to learn and move the needle going forward for a certain brand.
Kristin Lewis
You bet. I think the foundation of any strategy for me is going to be, how do we test it? How do we test a variety of different variables so we can figure out what works best, amplify it, and have a really, really strong strategy? So in general, a big part of my upbringing as a marketer was centered around testing, specifically A-B testing ads, A-B testing websites, and A-B testing offers. That really makes a big difference in terms of how things perform.
We are performance marketers at our core, so that really helps us slice and dice the copy, the imagery, the video that works, and helps us understand who we're talking to and build stronger strategies in the future. Let's say we're approaching a new TikTok campaign, for example. We're not just going to launch one campaign or one audience. We're going to launch several different audiences so we can see how each of them performs. Within each of those audiences, we'll probably run the same creative so that we can see really what resonates with them. Then we can optimize and amplify going forward. I think that is really critical, no matter the strategy you're testing.
Something we've been testing a lot of lately is AI versus manual features. Most platforms right now are incorporating a large amount of AI, really pushing us to do some testing there. Meta's got some good AI features, TikTok does as well, and so does Google. But through testing and refining our methodology, we continue to find that often manual optimizations are what work best. Manual optimizations do continue to be what looks best.
I'm sure you've run some Facebook campaigns using the standard optimizations, and things can often look a little funky. Brands don't love that. They want their best foot forward out in the world. They want their clients and their consumers to experience them the way they intended it to. We have found, through a variety of testing, that manual still rules the roost, and AI still has a lot of room to grow. Have you seen that yourself as well?
Nikki Lindgren
Yeah, well, that's interesting. I do want to dig a little deeper into that, and then I have a follow-up question as well. What we find, and it might be different in your businesses, is the machine-learning campaigns will work differently depending on total budget allocation to the platform. Let's say we're talking about Meta, and we're talking about Advantage Plus Shopping, broad audience versus maybe the legacy build campaign where we're putting in lookalikes and just more standard, you know, 2023 kind of modeling.
When budgets are small, sometimes we find Advantage for Shopping does work better. But when budgets become greater than $30K a month, let's say, then we have room to play with a lot of different layers and nuances to the data. But we have corner cases too, where Advantage for Shopping, even with limited budgets, does not perform at the rate we would expect them to. So what we generally have to do client by client is figure out...
Kristin Lewis
Mm-hmm.
Nikki Lindgren
Yeah, who their customer is, what their message is, and who's going to resonate best. So we don't have like a formulated playbook where we get a new client, and we're like plug and play. This is what month one looks...
Kristin Lewis
Yes, I think you're exactly right. It's really customized to each client. So ASC might work really well for this client, but not well at all for this client. So it's more like we have an arsenal of tools that we can test for each client and really figure out which custom set is going to work best for them and really move the needle for them.
Nikki Lindgren
What do you say to the prospective businesses you're trying to work with who really don't think there's much to media buying anymore because of all the AI and all of the machine learning? Because that's something we face sometimes in the industry. They're like, "What do you really do? What are you charging us for every month? Because you're going to run Performance Max, you're going to run ASC. So what do you do with your time?"
Kristin Lewis
Yeah, I think that's a really good question. Certainly, we can turn it on, and we can set it, and we can forget it. But we can do a lot better than that, and that's what performance is really all about. So I think that it's really about working face-to-face with the client on a weekly basis. I think that really being clear about what's on your plate. So what are we actually focused on this week? What are our priorities, and what are we testing, and how are those tests trending? I think that gets the client really engaged in what's happening and helps them understand that even though some aspects of the program are automated, we're still in there every day, hands-on, looking for opportunities to improve.
That's not necessarily something that AI is doing. At least at present, I do still think AI needs a human supervisor, at least for the most part. But it'll be really interesting to see where that goes in the next couple of years. I mean, PMAX is pretty automated, but I have yet to find a PMAX campaign that didn't need tweaks. I certainly have not seen a brand be able to go out there and just start doing PMAX and win without that strategy and that experience that really sits behind that.
Nikki Lindgren
That's true.
Well, that leads to the second part in my mind when we're trying to, you know, source new clients and win them over for business. It's related to creative. Oftentimes during the early conversations, they'll say, "Nikki, how many pieces of creative will we need every month?" When you're asked questions like that, how do you answer, and what do you see in your industries?
Kristin Lewis
Great.
Yeah, I think that I don't have a specific calculation. I'm sure some people do, but really it's more of a gut or intuitive check. Based on the amount of spend, I would say we want to allocate about 70% of our budget towards our control or core—what we know works best—and then 30% of the time we want to be testing. So, testing new creatives and messaging to see if we can get some winners that are worth amplifying.
If we look at paid social from that perspective, that's where we're really looking at creative. If you're spending around $25K a month, I would say you should probably be testing about 10 new creatives a month. I like to structure things in a kind of control bucket, test bucket, and then dynamic bucket. Our control campaign is going to focus on the client's audiences.
Our test campaign is focused on broad audiences because we always want to see which creative is the most scalable. So I will put about 70-80% of my budget into that control campaign, focusing on surfacing creatives that we know are winners, and then 30% towards that test campaign to see if we've got other options we can amplify for the month.
I think it's really critical to do that continuously. There’s more to test outside of just creative, right? Creative we test every day. But big caps, audiences, new features—there are lots of different things we can try. I think all of that goes into that 30% as well.
Nikki Lindgren
Yeah, we do the math to kind of break down what dollar amount should then require a new asset, because sometimes it's just easier for brands to understand that way, and you're spot on. So generally, what we find is between $2,500 and $25,000 is when a new creative is needed with every month's budget. Your math of $25K equaling 10 assets falls perfectly in line with what we’re seeing too.
Kristin Lewis
Mm-hmm. I love that.
Nikki Lindgren
Tell me about something you had really great expectations for and that flopped—or maybe there aren’t any.
Kristin Lewis
What is something I had great expectations for that flopped?
You know, I think building out non-brand strategies for specific brands, depending on the category, can be really challenging. We did a lot of experimenting with that last year for a few particular clients. We really tried analyzing where we were getting the most search volume and then categorizing those keywords by different topics, developing specific landing pages to drive those phrases to. That was not super successful.
We tried it for about three months, and we just weren’t seeing the type of CPAs we wanted. We did a handful of landing page testing, copy testing, and keyword testing, but it didn’t yield the results we hoped for. Eventually, we landed on non-branded PMAX, which performed really well. So I’d say, just because a strategy worked for one brand doesn’t mean it will work for you.
You can certainly try, but, as you mentioned before, it’s not plug and play. It really is custom for every brand. You just have to keep the wheels turning because you’ve got to find a winner. What works for everyone else may just not work for you.
Nikki Lindgren
I love that you bring that up because we, too, find that PMAX, in any way you slice it, is generally performing better than traditional search campaigns right now. Similarly, we work with clients on SEO or with our in-house SEO team. Those are instances where we can say, “Hey, we’ve tried this every different way we can think of strategically, and it’s still not pulling in the CPA or ROAS we’re looking for.”
Kristin Lewis
Thank you.
Nikki Lindgren
Here’s our recommendation for next steps for SEO—something that can be a little more in that owned and earned lane rather than paid media. So I think there are still good insights in situations where performance isn’t as strong as we need it to be for the brand.
Kristin Lewis
Absolutely. There’s always something we can learn, whether we win or fail.
Nikki Lindgren
Yeah, 100%. So when you think about the brands and businesses you’re talking to about the services you offer, how has the landscape or response to paid marketing and paid media in general changed over the years? Since you’ve been doing this since 2019, are there any new topics or data points brands are looking for when they engage with a business like yours?
Kristin Lewis
I think ROI will always be our North Star, but I think it’s more important than ever. Everybody’s stretched really thin from a budget perspective. So now more than ever, every single vendor and investment needs to get a return. It’s tough—we don’t have a crystal ball, so we don’t know exactly what that return will be, but driving an efficient return is critical.
Nikki Lindgren
And when you look at return with attribution and all the changes in the landscape, how are you guiding conversations with businesses about what they should be looking at in terms of where they’re sourcing their metrics and what good looks like?
Kristin Lewis
That's such a good question, and it really depends, right? Attribution is incredibly critical, especially on paid social, whether it's Meta or TikTok. As you know, less than 50% of that action is actually going to show up in Google Analytics, which many clients still use as their source of truth.
Personally, I’m not a fan. I think Google Analytics is a terrible source of truth, and I haven’t taken a liking to GA4 versus Universal Analytics. I think a lot of other marketers feel the same way—it just feels a bit murkier. So I find myself looking more at bottom-line metrics and Shopify than paying close attention to what's happening in Google Analytics.
When you're working with the Googles, Metas, and TikToks of the world, you should have an attribution partner. Bringing on a tool like Triple Whale or Northbeam can really help you close that gap. Every touch matters. We know that media is driving performance, but we need to measure it in the same way we measure other channels so that we have apples-to-apples comparisons. That’s my two cents there. I'd love to know how you're tackling that.
Nikki Lindgren
I appreciate the question back in my direction. One thing I like to focus on—though it’s overly simplified—is marketing efficiency rate (MER). Total e-commerce revenue divided by total paid media spend.
Now, it's unfair because it’s like, “Why would you look at the whole pie and then equate it to the cost of paid?” But I think it’s an important metric to keep an eye on and track over time to make sure it’s becoming more positive. The higher the number, the better. End of story.
Because then it allows you and the business owner to have more flexibility in the types of campaigns you can run. Let’s say they’re very much focused on direct response today—maybe more bottom-of-funnel remarketing efforts in paid because, of course, it has the highest return on ad spend and the lowest CAC.
But if we can convince them to look at MER a little more heavily and maybe spend slightly higher in awareness while hitting the same MER—or even improving it—we’re proving that every touchpoint matters. Instead of obsessing over the most efficient return for every dollar spent, we’re focusing on growing the business.
That said, we kind of have to tread lightly because some brands get really upset when you’re like, “I’m going to look at your total business and then compare it to costs.” And they’re like, “That’s super unfair.” And it is! I’m not going to pretend otherwise. But when we’re looking at directionality and long-term results, it’s helpful to have that in mind.
Kristin Lewis
I think so too. MER is one of the more critical metrics, in my opinion. The tide rises all ships—it may not be fair one-to-one, but every touchpoint matters and does make an impact. Tracking is more difficult today than it was, so I love that perspective.
Nikki Lindgren
Yeah, and I think it’s only going to get trickier with all of the privacy changes expected to come out this year. I haven’t read up on the latest, but I know they’ve been delayed a few times. I believe everything is still happening this year, though.
You mentioned TikTok, Google, and Meta earlier. You also touched on performance audio—I’d love for you to elaborate a little more on what you’ve been doing in that space.
Kristin Lewis
Absolutely. We just started experimenting with performance audio this year, and we’re finding that it works quite well, especially for new brands needing significant awareness and an educated audience. I think podcasts are where it’s at—they’re, in some ways, the new infomercial. Infomercials are still around, but that audience has largely moved to audio.
What we’ve observed is that advertising on audio drives a big increase in search activity. It boosts awareness and pushes people into the consideration phase, so we see branded search increase. Likewise, we typically see improved conversion rates across other channels. That heightened awareness improves performance on platforms like Meta, Pinterest, and TikTok—particularly for paid social.
It’s been a great addition to our marketing mix, although not every brand is interested in awareness campaigns. It can take a few months to get a program tested and running effectively. The key is choosing the right shows, which requires some trial and error. But we’ve had great success working with iHeart, and we’re excited to continue that partnership in 2025.
Nikki Lindgren
Thank you for sharing that! We’ve faced similar challenges with our clients. It can be tough to convince emerging brands to invest in performance audio when they’re so focused on efficiency metrics like ROAS and MER. We’re hoping to expand into this area too, possibly through programmatic efforts in 2025.
Kristin Lewis
That makes sense.
Nikki Lindgren
On a broader note, what kinds of changes are you expecting to see in marketing mixes, tech stacks, or the landscape overall now that we’re in January?
Kristin Lewis
I think attribution will be an even bigger topic this year than in years past. People are trying to demystify the data they’re seeing. As I mentioned earlier, GA4 makes it so much harder to get the information you’re looking for.
Another prediction—call me crazy—I don’t think TikTok is going anywhere. In fact, I’m hearing that brands are doubling down on their TikTok efforts. The platform absolutely knocked it out of the park over the holidays, especially with TikTok Shopping.
People are spending significant time on TikTok—this year, it even surpassed streaming in time spent. No other platform offers the same viral potential. My prediction? TikTok will continue to grow and could explode in 2025.
Nikki Lindgren
I completely agree. I also appreciate the targeting capabilities on TikTok. While I’m not the one pushing the buttons on campaigns these days, it’s clear that TikTok offers a level of granularity that’s slightly different from what we see on other social platforms. I love the flexibility in how we can tackle audiences there.
Kristin Lewis
I agree, and TikTok has some fun creative features that Meta doesn’t offer. I love using the countdown timer and pairing banners with our creative. I’ve also enjoyed watching how people are using TikTok Live and TikTok Shop together. I’m really excited to see what’s next for the platform.
Nikki Lindgren
Absolutely! I’ll be right there with you, figuring out how to allocate budgets between TikTok and other placements, both social and beyond. Wrapping up here, I’ve got a few final questions for you. This next one is a favorite because it’s about reflecting on what we’ve learned. If you could give your earlier self advice—whether about starting in marketing or running your own business—what would you say?
Kristin Lewis
Get an accountant and an attorney right away.
Working in-house gave me a ton of great experience in being an effective marketer and delivering results for clients. But running my own business? That was a whole new learning curve. The client work came naturally, but managing the financial side was a real challenge. If I could do it over, I’d make sure I had a CPA and an attorney from day one. They’d help set everything up correctly, ensuring I was prepared for taxes and other responsibilities.
Having a system from the start makes all the difference. Trying to figure it out as you go often means more cleanup work later.
Nikki Lindgren
I can relate! Why didn’t you bring on an accountant and lawyer sooner?
Kristin Lewis
Honestly, I thought I could handle it myself. There are great tools out there—I used Wave for invoicing and later QuickBooks—but you have to know how to use them effectively. Managing cash flow was another big lesson for me. Even though I’d managed P&Ls and budgets for years, running the cash flow of a business was a whole different ball game.
Nikki Lindgren
Same here. For me, it was partly about the costs—I didn’t want to invest in those areas early on.
Kristin Lewis
Exactly. On the legal side, everything I was doing initially was custom, which was time-intensive. My attorney helped me templatize my offerings—agreements, pitch decks, and so on—which made scaling much easier. That wasn’t even on my radar at the time, but it’s advice I’m incredibly grateful for.
Nikki Lindgren
That’s such a good takeaway. Switching gears, are there any events this year that you think marketers should prioritize or that you’re planning to attend?
Kristin Lewis
Yes! I’m planning to attend two major events. The first is eTail in Palm Springs at the end of February. It’s a big e-commerce conference, perfect for connecting with marketers and brands. I haven’t been to many events since the pandemic, so I’m really excited to get back out there.
The second is Expo West. We work with a lot of health and wellness clients, and this event will be packed with brands in that space. I’m looking forward to networking there too.
Nikki Lindgren
We’re aiming for Expo West as well! And now you’ve convinced me to take eTail more seriously—I’ll look into it. Kristin, it’s been such a pleasure having you on the show. If anyone listening wants to get in touch about your services or anything else, how can they reach you?
Kristin Lewis
You can find us on our website at www.takeflightmarketing.co. I’m also on Instagram as Kristin Takes Flight and on TikTok as Kristin Drinks Wine.
Nikki Lindgren
I love it! We could do a whole separate show about drinking wine.
Kristin Lewis
A completely different show—and a wonderful one at that!
Nikki Lindgren
Amazing. Thank you so much for your time today. I’m excited to hear how the year unfolds for you and to reconnect before 2025 wraps up.
Kristin Lewis
Likewise! Hopefully, we’ll meet in person at Expo West or eTail.
Nikki Lindgren
Absolutely. That’s it for this episode of The Pennock Knockdown. Thanks for watching and listening, everyone!
