The Pennock Knockdown: A New Age And Demographic For Skincare Marketing with Sabrina Yavil
Watch or Listen to Episode 2 with Sabrina Yavil
Listen on Apple and Spotify. Watch on TikTok or Youtube.
Sabrina Yavil has been an executive in the beauty industry for nearly 20 years, working at some of the most iconic brands including Clinique and Bumble and bumble. After having children, she was surprised to learn that most kids and baby products contained harmful and questionable ingredients like endocrine disruptors and irritants that aren't appropriate for developing, young skin. Still concerned about ingredients as her active boys grew older, and reluctant to use typical drugstore products billed as “clean,” she founded Gryme, a personal care brand for preteens and teens formulated without over 3,600 sus ingredients that can compromise children’s skin and health.
Gryme’s multitasking products meet parents’ safety concerns while catering to kids’ preferences and active lifestyles, making it easier on both parent and child at shower time. Through Gryme,
Sabrina aims to set a new standard in safe, effective personal care for the next generation.
You can get in touch with Sabrina Yavil via her email or Instagram.
Brands Mentioned
Transcript
Nikki Lindgren
Welcome to the Pennock Knockdown, a podcast that impacts key strategies and tactics for digital marketing leaders. Today, I'm joined with Sabrina Yavil, who is a fractional CMO in the beauty industry, and she recently launched her own Gen-Alpha-focused skincare brand for boys—a personal care brand for boys. Sabrina, welcome to the show.
Sabrina Yavil
Thanks so much for having me, Nikki. It's great to be here.
Nikki Lindgren
Well, I'd like to start with a soft, easy question, and with that, I'd love to understand if there's any new beauty product that you've recently discovered and are trying that you want to share with our audience.
Sabrina Yavil
Well, there's so many, you know, but I used to work at Clinique years ago in New York, and a couple of my colleagues have since gone on to launch their own brands. So I guess I just want to, like, keep checking out their whole line. So one is AP Chem by Sandra Statz, and she partnered with a celebrity dermatologist to launch their line, and she's a big ketamine advocate, and they have, like, an eye cream and a moisturizer. So I'm looking forward to, like, really go deep there. And then the other one is called Mother Science. That was started by Jessica Golden along with the guitarist of Incubus. Remember that band? And I think they're still touring, and his wife is a violinist, and she worked to discover a molecule and commercialize a brand-new molecule called Malassezin. It's a little hard, but that's a pretty...
Nikki Lindgren
Yes, I do.
Sabrina Yavil
...cool innovation. And they have a brightening serum, which I've tried, and then they have a new retinol serum for lines and wrinkles, which I really need to try.
Nikki Lindgren
So, Mother Science. I love her packaging and branding. And I think we had previous conversations where you told me about AP Chem, so I believe I still have a tab open on my phone to go purchase something and check it out.
Sabrina Yavil
Awesome.
Nikki Lindgren
Could you walk us through a marketing strategy you launched that either excelled or flopped and how you're applying those learnings going forward for some of your marketing efforts?
Sabrina Yavil
Sure. So I've been in marketing for almost 20 years. I was at a state lottery for 10 years, and then I've moved into consulting. I've been doing that for almost the last 10 years. That's something that I kind of moved into a long time ago before fractional was a thing, as a hybrid position when I was raising my family. So it's really cool that, like, post-COVID, this fractional role has really, like, exploded, and there's a bunch of executives that I know that have also moved into that for more flexibility or more variety in clients.
So, from a marketing perspective, I've seen almost everything, but I hadn't had a lot of experience in Amazon, and I had been working with a client recently, and they were a global, omnichannel brand with major retail distribution online in Amazon. And so when I came on, I was actually really impressed they had grown so quickly on Amazon within a couple of years. I like to—I have a finance background. So previous to marketing, I know I look like I'm super young, but previous to marketing, I was in finance for a number of years. So I really like to get into the numbers.
So I looked into their channel profitability, expecting to be really impressed. And it turned out that even with all this growth and revenue, they were barely breaking even. So all that growth didn't translate to the bottom line or contribute to the profitability of the brand. So I like to look into, okay, so what's going on? So we looked at it from a SKU perspective, and their top five bestselling SKUs were negative.
And so we looked into why that was, and it's because they were being really aggressive on winning the buy box, which is now called the featured offer. And they were undercutting their own price to compete with third-party resellers. Meanwhile, they'd already sold into those resellers. Okay, so that doesn't really make sense. And then the other thing was they were really aggressive on promotional discounts. So, you know, the prime deal days are 20% or more. And so, rather than looking at what each SKU could afford from a profitability, they were promotional across the board.
So, you know, I think from a marketing perspective, you want to go really hard on advertising and working with agencies and being aggressive on your marketing and your pricing strategy. But I think that, you know, some basics come into play where it's kind of cliche, but you've got to know your numbers. So that was kind of one flop. But we've turned that around. Then, we, for the next year, we focused on profitability.
So not necessarily competing on the featured offer, which took a hit on revenue but protected the bottom line. And then, when we're participating in promotions, which we want to do for customer acquisition and for awareness, being more selective of which products in the portfolio we want to highlight and push and which ones just don't make sense from a profitability perspective.
Nikki Lindgren
I like that you called out a couple of things there that I just want to highlight again. I think, one, the emergence of brands working with Fractionals is so fantastic for us, even agency side, because we're not working with brand people who are locked into one brand, but actually we're working with brand people, the Fractionals in this case, who have exposure to multiple brands. So, it just brings in a lot more opportunity to do creative tests and learn strategies than I think when you're working with truly pure full-time in-house people.
I love that you mentioned the opportunity of fractional and how it's kind of evolved; you allowed yourself to evolve and grow more.
The second thing that I think you called out that was interesting is just like what brands need today from agencies and how locked into profitability and really efficiencies and margin agencies should be to meet the clients where their needs are. So, it's really eye-opening to realize some of the agencies still today are not looking at that in partnership with the clients. I'm glad you got that all squared away.
Sabrina Yavil
So, just to touch on that though, with the agencies, I look at it, if you're working with an agency that you really do trust — and you should be, right? If you're engaging with an agency, there should be that level of trust. I look at it as almost like a doctor-patient relationship. If you don't share everything, then they don't know everything. So, while they're reporting back on, you know, "Hey, you're doing great, you're at 40% margins or something on Amazon," like, pat, pat, pat, they're not seeing like the cost of goods, the freight, the agency fees, like all the other factors that layer in. And had they known that, maybe they would have made different choices. So, I think that's the other thing is the brands can, you know, the agencies can only work as well as the brands also communicate with them.
Nikki Lindgren
But in some cases, if the agency isn't asking the questions and the brand doesn't know better, it can be a disaster too. So, definitely worthwhile to mention the doctor-patient relationship. I like that one. When we were talking before the recording, we chatted about TikTok a little bit. Do you want to talk to us about how you've started utilizing that channel?
Sabrina Yavil
Yeah, I mean, you can't go without hearing about the synergy between TikTok and Amazon. And Amazon's even like participated with TikTok now and created some closed-loop opportunities. So, you know, with being on Amazon, it does open up some opportunities to drive off-channel marketing activities, like through influencers who are on social media with Instagram and TikTok to drive to Amazon. I was just talking with another founder yesterday, and he really invests in his off-Amazon marketing, and he doesn't really love Amazon too much, but he can't get rid of it because he called it the "cash register." Basically, people are hearing about the brand through all the brand awareness and marketing activities off-channel, but they're coming and converting on Amazon. It is kind of this synergistic platform.
What I like about working with creators and influencers off Amazon is that if you're working with them from an affiliate perspective, then you're only paying a commission when you've generated revenue on Amazon instead of paying creators to post, which is, you know, there's no guaranteed sales from that. And I think I've worked with enough brands where they've been burned. Paying creators, I'm not saying that they shouldn't be paid, but just being paid to post once or twice isn't translating to sales in a meaningful way for most brands that I've spoken with. So, from the affiliate's perspective, at least when they're paying a creator, they know that they've already generated revenue from it. So, that seems to work. And the other thing that's interesting about the TikTok-Amazon connection is that when things go, you know, become viral — I hate that word — become trending, you know, you have a host of consumers coming or people coming to Amazon searching for those terms. So, if your brand or product is something that's trending on TikTok or could, you know, benefit from something that's trending on TikTok, then it's really important to make sure that your keywords on Amazon reflect those trending TikTok terms. So, there's a popular example going around with the pheromone perfumes and people coming off of TikTok going onto Amazon and searching for pheromone perfumes. And I've seen a lot of Estee Lauder and Chanel and Dior perfume ads before, and I've never seen them talk about pheromones. So, if it's not in your search terms, from an SEO perspective on Amazon, you're not going to get any of that traffic. So, being in tune to what's trending, but also making sure that you're constantly updating your keywords from an SEO perspective is really important on Amazon to capture that traffic.
Nikki Lindgren
And then, if you can't use words like "pheromone perfume" in your SEO, then you're running search ads on Amazon to capture that audience, right? So, there's always a solution. Sometimes it just costs money. I really like what you said about the creators and working with them in the capacity of affiliate marketing, rather than, you know, pay upfront for the posts. And we were recently at a summit where Creator IQ shared some data, and it was really that creators want to build a career with brands. Now, they don't want to just take home a paycheck, so I think really aligning with creators who understand the vision and the purpose of the brand and can authentically promote it is really captivating, and what both parties really want. So, it's a good place to land leading into 2025.
Sabrina Yavil
I think it's really synergistic for the brand too, because in the past, or even probably currently, people are paying per post, and we know that from data that it — and it changes, it keeps getting more and more — but the frequency that somebody needs to see a post from that creator is anywhere from like seven to twelve times, depending on the source of information that you're using. So, paying for like one or two posts isn't going to bring in sales; it's that repeated exposure and that relationship. So, I do think that both sides can benefit greatly from a longer...
Nikki Lindgren
Why do you think the frequency or the instances someone needs to be exposed to a brand has increased?
Sabrina Yavil
I think it has to do with our shorter attention spans. We may not be really like taking it in or just going too fast past it. So, I do think it, you know, our attention spans are contributing to that. What do you think?
Nikki Lindgren
Yeah, I would probably echo that perfectly. And I'm a discount shopper, so anytime I see a good discount, it'll stop me in my tracks, and I'll consider buying the shirt I've already got in the closet because it's 20% off, but from a different brand, right? I was just guilty of doing that this morning.
Sabrina Yavil
You...
Nikki Lindgren
Want to switch gears a little bit and talk about Gryme, your new baby? I know it's only a couple of months old as a personal care brand for Gen Alpha, but I'd love to kind of understand what strategies you're deploying there to build both awareness and conversions. Should they differ from what we just spoke through?
Sabrina Yavil
Yeah, well, as you mentioned, it's a baby, and I'm bootstrapped. So, you know, I don't have a ton of money to try lots of things. So, I've been learning from, you know, wins and mistakes or, you know, hiccups from all the brands that I've been working with over the years. And I've been trying to like leverage those best practices. So, you know, one is focus on profitability. So, it's really hard to be profitable as a new business, as a startup. The founder I was talking with yesterday is a year into his brand, and they got into Bloomingdale's, and they're on Amazon, and you know, it's really hard. It's still not profitable. So, even though profitability is not probably realistic year one, always have that in mind. Also, it's really expensive to drive traffic to a website, especially for a bootstrap company that isn't backed. And so, I think it is more efficient at this moment in time to spend ads on Amazon, on that platform. They already have their customers primed to buy. It's the second-largest retailer in the world behind Walmart. And so, every founder's dream is to get into retail, and Amazon is the second-biggest retailer, and you can be on there without any hurdles. So, I think that's a big opportunity. It's kind of leveled the playing field for a lot of companies. And so, I'm going to be leaning into that myself. And then, just like we were talking about working with influencers and creators from an affiliate perspective, that's something that I'm looking at too: how can I work with other moms and other brands and form a relationship and a partnership where that works on both sides that can drive affiliate revenue for them to Amazon or to my website? But knowing that customers do like to convert and usually have a cart open on Amazon, I think for a new brand, it's just a good way for brand awareness and exposure since people are really open to discovery on Amazon.
Nikki Lindgren
Well, I'd love to take a minute to look ahead. It's almost 2025, and I'd love to understand what shifts you're anticipating seeing related to marketing mix, relating to maybe technology plays, etc., that you're thinking about for Gryme as well as some of the fractional capacities you work in.
Sabrina Yavil
Yeah, I think if you don't say AI, you're not paying attention. AI is — other than the TikTok and Amazon — everyone's talking about AI. So, machine learning, in ChatGPT, let's just start there. I think brands are going to be, I think everyone, everyone is gonna be leveraging ChatGPT even more. There's so much talk about it. It can write copy, it can create a content calendar for you or thought starters, write press releases, create scripts for videos, write blogs. I mean, it seems like every day someone is posting something, a new idea of how to leverage ChatGPT. I think people are getting wary of AI-written content, so using it as a thought starter and not just verbatim, I think, is the right way to go. But I think people are gonna be leaning into that even more in addition to other competitors or in other AI platforms. I think from another machine learning perspective is shoppable videos. Shoppable videos are incredible because you can create new content, or you can leverage content that's like high-performing on social and then make it shoppable while your audience is watching it. And so, that's something that you can curate even based on your audience's interests. So, you have a website visitor based on their profile or what you can figure out about them. You can personalize like what videos they see and the products that you're serving up and make it really easy button for them to just add to cart. I think that shoppable videos are gonna continue to take off. There's already a number of brands out there or companies offering that. And then, we were just listening to, at Founder Maiden at the executive summit, that influencer content can even benefit from AI. So, they're learning about an influencer, how they speak, how they look, how they talk, and basically personalizing messages to their audience that's approved by the influencer, improved by the creator, but that's AI-generated. So, then that reduces the amount of creation hours for them, which I think is really interesting. So, I think we'll see probably more of that, and then personalizing it. There's a lot of talk about the micro-influencers, and people are kind of, kind of overlook them or not overlook them, but you want the Kim Kardashians and the big names. Somebody with, you know, 10,000 or fewer followers isn't probably going to move the needle. But now, I think people are coming around to that. That's a great, you know, group of people to reach out to and to leverage for your brand because they have smaller audiences that are more connected to them. Their engagement's higher. And, you know, that is somebody that you could probably build relationships with over time. And as they grow, you're going to grow. Whereas you work with like the macro influencers, their engagement may not be as high. And so, it may not translate into the sales that a brand really is looking for. Having a well-known creator being able to customize content and personalize it so it feels personal, I think is going to be interesting to see if that translates into sales, or even just more engagement.
Nikki Lindgren
And I have to say, with Gryme, where you're going after a new generation who is probably going to be more open to AI than us older folks, that'll be interesting too because I think these AI-generated creators might be very exciting and normal for them.
Sabrina Yavil
I think that it's more of a Gen Z play. The Gen Alpha, you know, they're really craving in real life too. They're like in-life, in-person experiences. So, you know, it's what the early data is showing because, I mean, these kids are so young, but they like to go into stores. They like to feel and touch because they've just been online and you're just seeing photos and videos. And so, you know, they really want that in-person connection.
So, I don't know, we'll see how Gen Alpha turns out.
Nikki Lindgren
Yeah, so maybe a Gryme pop-up somewhere near you in the future.
Sabrina Yavil
I think so. Yes.
All right, so another thing I'm keeping an eye on for 2025 is Substack. I have already a few subscriptions to some writers, journalists, and reporters. Anyone can start a newsletter on Substack, and it's a really interesting way of growing an audience, but also being able to monetize that audience. And from a social media perspective, it's a new platform that's getting a lot of traction.
There are a few writers that I follow who are in beauty and fashion. A couple you could check out are The Review of Beauty by Jessica Delfino. I think she's got well over 100,000 subscribers. And then a friend of mine has a column called Writing in Black and White, and her name is Christine Morrison. She's a reporter.
It's great because a lot of these writers are trying to just find their own voice, a lot of freelancers, and then monetizing their own writing in addition to working with publications. So, brands being able to work with these authors and get their message out on this platform is another thing that I think a lot of brands are going to be leaning into for next year.
Nikki Lindgren
It's a lot to think about for 2025.
So, thank you so much for the time today, Sabrina. I think the last question is really, what's the best way for people to follow you on your journey and your next steps?
Sabrina Yavil
Sure. So, if you want to reach out to me, you can email me at sabrina@gryme.co, and you can follow us on Instagram or TikTok at @gryme.co. It's G-R-Y-M-E. And then our website is gryme.co can also search for us on Amazon at just Gryme and check out our products.
Nikki Lindgren
This has been great. Sabrina, thank you for giving us a look inside your playbook and some of the things you've been focused on this year and the times ahead. So, appreciate it so much.
